Curse

Gabs88 · Apr 12, 2012, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Simply put, do you think it deserves a spot on a minion master bar? Yes or no? And why, why not?

Olle · Apr 12, 2012, 07:12 AM // 07:12

If I feel i can take a skill out, yes, +2 SR&DM is nice.

Tess80 · Apr 12, 2012, 09:03 AM // 09:03

If your minions are supposed to stay alive (minion master), then Masochism helps making them more durable and will allow one additional minion, so I'd say it deserves a spot.

If your minions are supposed to bomb the enemy with Death Nova (minion bomber), you're cycling through minions fast enough so that the extra durability of your minions is less of an issue. It's still a decent skill to bring, but usually I have other skills I'd like to take more on these kind of bars.

Avishh · Apr 12, 2012, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Can help to reach a breakpoint, so I normally take it, but it's definitely not key and if it didn't reach a minion breakpoint I wouldn't bother.

DRGN · Apr 12, 2012, 02:41 PM // 14:41

The extra minion, 6 energy/15 seconds from Soul Reaping, and slightly stronger Death Novas/whatever other damage skills you bring make it worthwhile to me. The extra health also makes it a bit easier to keep them alive between battles

Jeydra · Apr 12, 2012, 02:47 PM // 14:47

The skill adds +2 to your two most important attributes. Why would you not take it?

Gabs88 · Apr 12, 2012, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The skill adds +2 to your two most important attributes. Why would you not take it?

I've just been testing it a little, but my reasoning is based on this:
1. It seems to make MM's fall behind the team more.
2. Bar compression, what else could I take? (This is really the importaint one)
3. How much damage does it really add in practice?

That said, I'm still using it on most of my chars. I'm mostly just curious of what I actually loose by not doing so?

Daesu · Apr 12, 2012, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

That said, I'm still using it on most of my chars. I'm mostly just curious of what I actually loose by not doing so?

Not much. I have seen Olias using it and saccing himself to death when he was already at low health, with both my healers and all the enemies dead. Perhaps he was trying to cast PS on himself then with Masochism on and murdered himself in the process.

Use it if you have the bar space and it grants you a breakpoint. Otherwise I don't think it makes that much of a difference. I usually bring masochism on my MM as there are not that many other good alternatives to bring along.

InStars · Apr 12, 2012, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I would take it on pure Death Magic necro, but normally I run hybrids and I use secondary profession skills instead.

Gemm · Apr 12, 2012, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

2. Bar compression, what else could I take? (This is really the importaint one)

I mostly use it, althouuuuuugh sometimes i take putrid flesh for extra pressure in areas with groups that have a healer(s), but i micro it incase a hero decides to abuse it. It's quite nice, helps with spiking down groups quickly with the extra degen.

I'd say 70% of the time i use masochism though, as people have said extra minion helps in the long run and extra energy from SR.

doomfodder · Apr 12, 2012, 08:17 PM // 20:17

I use Masochism, but not to "compete" with other minion masters in my group

12+1+3 death magic
12+1 soul reaping
3 curses

Discord - 115 base damage without any cons or title related damage bonus
Necrosis
Enfeeble - condition feeds KD of the summon
Malign Intervention - hex to feed discord
Verata's Gaze - master the level 20 bone horror
Summon Naga Shaman
Masochism
opt slot - res, EVAS, Technobabble, rupt, ench removal,etc

majoho · Apr 13, 2012, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Not much. I have seen Olias using it and saccing himself to death when he was already at low health, with both my healers and all the enemies dead. Perhaps he was trying to cast PS on himself then with Masochism on and murdered himself in the process.

I have had some survivability issues with it as well so I stopped using it.

hunter · Apr 13, 2012, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Its like asking whether to take death nova on a minion bomber

Jeydra · Apr 14, 2012, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

I've just been testing it a little, but my reasoning is based on this:
1. It seems to make MM's fall behind the team more.
2. Bar compression, what else could I take? (This is really the importaint one)
3. How much damage does it really add in practice?

That said, I'm still using it on most of my chars. I'm mostly just curious of what I actually loose by not doing so?

Bar compression would be a valid argument if there were good replacements, but what else is there to use? Besides, the standard MM bar already has a free slot (Putrid Bile).

Gabs88 · Apr 14, 2012, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Bar compression would be a valid argument if there were good replacements, but what else is there to use? Besides, the standard MM bar already has a free slot (Putrid Bile).

You'd seriously loose Putrid Bile before Masochism? O.o

Jeydra · Apr 14, 2012, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Yes. If I weren't going AFK most of the time, I'd lose Blood of the Master before Masochism as well.

Kunder · Apr 14, 2012, 05:59 PM // 17:59

A full Masochism minion army does ~25% more damage than it would without masochism (counting the 11th minion and +2 levels to all minions). It provides ~35% more of a damage buffer, and BotM is effectively ~25-35% more powerful. It makes soul reaping ~20% more powerful (depending on your attribute allocation). I hope I don't have to explain why all of this is a good thing.

Putrid Bile is weaksauce. You have to micro it heavily to make it actually trigger reliably, and when it does its still pretty weak for a skill that can only work effectively once per battle. Would never use it, go /Mo for PS/SB/SoA, /P for SYG/FB, etc. You can find a whole lot better stuff to place on a bar than PB.

Lanier · Apr 14, 2012, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

You'd seriously loose Putrid Bile before Masochism? O.o

I would choose both masochism and deathly swarm over putrid bile (which is exactly what I do). Putrid bile is not reliable and I have no idea why its still on the mainbar of the wiki build.

Daesu · Apr 14, 2012, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

I have had some survivability issues with it as well so I stopped using it.

Most of the time, Masochism works out fine. Maybe it is just me, but I don't feel a big difference with or without Masochism on my MM bar since my mesmers kill so much faster than the minions do and with so many spirits, my team can usually survive well even if all the minions are dead. But like I said, I take it because I have not found a better alternative.

If you are having survivability issues with your MM, try fitting in blood bond. It works well with masochism. With a superior death magic rune and masochism, my MM is frequently the favorite target, but blood bond balances all these away very well and helps redirect damage to the minions making them explode more.

Cathode_Reborn · Apr 18, 2012, 07:34 AM // 07:34

I've always been kinda iffy about it.

2+ to DM is nice but the gains are extremely minor. The damage boost to regular skills is almost nothing and it's not really enough to suddenly make your minions much stronger/tankier. It might be tempting to take on a bar with AotL but in most cases, I wouldn't bother with it.